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@USA

It all started from insults. Let's end it with humor, to both of you. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=astISOttCQ0

nothanks(ciel)
(#8028651@0)
Last Updated: 2013-1-29
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  • 工作学习 / 外语学习 / 看看这篇文章：The Most Beautiful Code I Never Wrote(转贴)， 有助于各位理解 “It's the most beautiful place I never went” 这类表达。 -winterstorm(打酱油的); 2013-1-24 (#8019190@0)
    • That does not mean we can rigidly copy the pattern. In was written that way in contrast to the second line "the most beautiful code I ever wrote". Although it is not a formal way of writing, it does catch your attention in contrast. -nothanks(ciel); 2013-1-24 {188} (#8019212@0)
      “It's the most beautiful place I never went” only confuses people. Or you'd better add something to complete this type of expression, telling people "I am weird, but with a purpose."
      • Thanks for the comment! My understanding is that this pattern is used to describe something beautiful, however, for some reason, its beauty is impossible to be seen, approached, or obtained etc. . -winterstorm(打酱油的); 2013-1-24 {60} (#8019405@0)
        In other words, it is the ultimate beauty that is not there.
        • It is a one-time creative use that fits well within the context of the said subject. Without the context explained in this article, general application of such a saying will lead to confusion. -goingconern(GoingConcern); 2013-1-25 {130} (#8020721@0)
          This setence, standing alone, is nonetheless grammatically incorrect, but perfectly fine in this article and makes a strong point.
          • It's not "one-time ". There are more examples of this pattern. e.g. "She is the most beautiful girl I never met". -winterstorm(打酱油的); 2013-1-25 (#8021714@0)
            • I tell you why it is so confusing. -nothanks(ciel); 2013-1-25 {990} (#8021869@0)
              I can imagine the guy who writes the codes, when seeing the codes written so wonderfully by someone else, uttering involuntarily “Wow!”. The logic behind this scene is that he has “seen” the codes, but he never wrote that way. He can’t say “the most beautiful code I never saw”. Besides, goes back to my first responding post, it also has a function in echoing the second line.

              “It's the most beautiful place I never went” and the example you gave “She is the most beautiful girl I never met”, fall into the same fault. You have to “see” it to make any conclusion.

              Change your sentence to “She is the most beautiful girl I never dreamt of/dated/kissed”, it is logically sound, because obviously you have “seen” her and knows how beautiful she is, but never dreamt of her/dated/kissed whatever. But this pattern is still an awkward way to express an intense feeling, which is one more reason to avoid it, unless you have a really good reason to take the risk.
              • I totally understand your point. What I meant to say is that language is NOT logic. Once a way of expression has been widely accepted, the grammatical correctness of this usage will no longer be an issue. -winterstorm(打酱油的); 2013-1-27 {472} (#8023411@0)
                A typical example is "long time no see", which we all know is grammatically wrong. However, as it has been adopted by the mainstream English users, its grammatical correctness is becoming less and less important.

                Getting back to this topic, personally I am not in favor of this way of expression. Nonetheless, I don't see any point to keep arguing about the "grammar" or "logic" of this pattern, which has been commonly adopted by the mainstream English users.
                • Very well-said! Good big picture thinking! -goingconern(GoingConcern); 1.25 12:51 (#8020703@0) -wincity(红卫兵); 2013-1-27 (#8023470@0)
                  • 语法和逻辑对中高级水平而言不重要，或者说学语言不要被条条框框束缚，但是对LZ这样的初学者，语法逻辑不懂，名词副词不分，别说交流讨论，别人就是想教他，甚至他想查字典，也是看不懂的。当然，我知道他肯定听不进这些话，只是希望对其他人有帮助。 -geekcode(吉克码工); 2013-1-27 (#8024649@0)
                    • 觉得你有些自相矛盾。语法就是语法，哪有对什么人重要对什么人不重要之说。。感觉你有一种说不得碰不得的样子。 -blueskygreenlake(藍天碧水我的最愛); 2013-1-28 (#8026127@0)
      • Very well-said! Good big picture thinking! -goingconern(GoingConcern); 2013-1-25 (#8020703@0)
      • 补充一点，LZ自己可能没看懂，或者故意隐藏上下文。他引的根本不是个句子，而是个标题。而标题下面第一句，原作者重述，就是用的正规的完成时。标题里为简洁不用完成时很常见，而用Never对Ever，就如你分析的了。相关的原文在贴内，有兴趣的可以看看。 -geekcode(吉克码工); 2013-1-27 {255} (#8024687@0)

        Ch. 3. The Most Beautiful Code I Never Wrote

        3.1. The Most Beautiful Code I Ever Wrote


        When Greg Wilson first described the idea of this book, I asked myself what was the most beautiful code I had ever written. ......
        • +1 -redjunk(rolia); 2013-1-27 (#8024848@0)
    • 想不到酱油哥竟然在这种地方纠结。那我简单说说为什么这是病句，尤其是原句。首先，这里go是不及物动词，如果要用，无论如何后面还要再加个to。 -geekcode(吉克码工); 2013-1-24 (#8019518@0)
      • Go 之后不用to的例子不胜枚举，你如何解释以下用法：go there, go upstairs, go online... -winterstorm(打酱油的); 2013-1-24 (#8019592@0)
        • 晕。对不起，是我误会你了，就当我没跟过你的贴。 -geekcode(吉克码工); 2013-1-24 (#8019764@0)
          • 慢走不送。 -winterstorm(打酱油的); 2013-1-25 (#8019902@0)
            • 沙发。 -wincity(红卫兵); 2013-1-25 (#8019940@0)
        • go后面接副词不用加 to，接名词一定要有 to。 -maplus(马+); 2013-1-25 (#8020756@0)
          • 不要讲大道理，就是上面那一句，加to还是不加？我认为还是要加 -zhousx18(IHaveADream); 2013-1-27 (#8024299@0)
            • 到现在为止，只有楼主认为是不用加to的。其实因为place是名词，go作为不及物动词（说白了，就是不能直接带名词的动词）必须要加to。楼主象是从来没听说过不及物动词（intransitive verb），估计是没查过字典，因为字典里动词的词条几乎都是最先注明是及物还是不及物。 -geekcode(吉克码工); 2013-1-27 (#8024729@0)
    • 其次，The most ... I've (n)ever，严格地说应该用完成时。当然你可以找到有人不用的例子，但并不等于这些例子就不是病句。一种说法没有人用，几乎可以肯定是错的，或者是很不地道的。一种说法只有极少的人用，你最好也打个问号。 -geekcode(吉克码工); 2013-1-24 (#8019526@0)
      • 还有一种可能就是某种表达其实不少见，只是你自己很少见到而已。所以千万别以为自己很少见到的，就一定是实际上很少用的, 尤其对外语来讲。 -winterstorm(打酱油的); 2013-1-24 (#8019599@0)
        • I don't think this is the point. One writer's creative use of language in specific context does not qualify a phrase for general use. Pomoting a one-off quote inappropriately equally cause confusion. -goingconern(GoingConcern); 2013-1-25 {132} (#8020737@0)
          Thus it is not about rules or uses, but how the writer writes coherently and logically taking care of his/her own style of language.
          • We write to inspire, to explore, to pass on thoughts and knowledge to push forward the wheel of civilization, not necessarily to IMPRESS people. -goingconern(GoingConcern); 2013-1-25 (#8020752@0)
            • you short of heart hole -dv2011(小肥羊); 2013-1-25 (#8021117@0)
              • If you have a "hole", make sure it does not leak too badly. -goingconern(GoingConcern); 2013-1-25 (#8021554@0)
                • 他可能只是想幽他一默地说你太实诚了。象楼主这样要抛开语法和逻辑来判断句子是不是病句，又有意无意地不看（或者是藏起）上下文，你跟他讨论能有结果吗？我反正是闪了，也不用他送。 -geekcode(吉克码工); 2013-1-27 (#8024753@0)
                  • 你已经闪过一闪了， 这次不会又是假“闪”吧。这个话题本人已经表达得很清楚，也没兴趣再和你这个档次的ID讨论了。看上去你的心态还是比较浮躁，有点滑稽。要不再读读红卫兵的心态篇？ -winterstorm(打酱油的); 2013-1-28 (#8025295@0)
              • goingconcern缺心眼。。。这个翻译的好 哈哈哈 -redjunk(rolia); 2013-1-27 (#8023384@0)
    • 酱油兄不容易，来支持一下。 -butubukuai(不吐不快); 2013-1-29 {2100} (#8028116@0)
      本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛完全同意酱油的见解。这种用法没有语病，虽不常见，也不能算鲜见。这样表达有两层意思，前半句是说这个地方、或这段代码被誉为最美，后半句的意思是可惜我没去过，或可惜不是我写的。这样表达不仅是在叙述，也是表达情感。如果前半句的形容词是贬义的话，就表达了幸亏我没去过，或幸亏不是我写的，等等。用贬义的更少见。比如“Foo is the worst book I never read." 如果又听到“Bar is the worst book I have ever read.”可以肯定说话的人更不喜欢Foo。毕竟他还能强忍着把Bar读完。
      比较一下下面的表达，你会觉出不同吗？
      1. This is the most beautiful place I have heard of but never been to.
      2. This is the most beautiful place I never went to.
      3. This is the most beautiful place I have ever been to.
      1太较真了，意思是他把他听说过但没去过的地方穷举后，根据臆测的美丽度采用正确的排序算法排序，这个地方是其中美丽度最高的那一个地方。
      2是表达一种情感，虽然说“最美”，不是精确比较的结果，而是笼统而言。说话的人还没去过，或者一直没机会去。很多时候说话的人是表达一种情感，比如惋惜（可惜我没去过），或者俏皮（我没去过，人家都这么说的，你觉得不好别怪我）。
      3的意思就不用说了，大家都明白。
      估计1是理性思维强的人说的，2是感性思维强的人说的。但是理性思维强的人不会以臆测的美丽度排序，所以他们也不会说出1的这种表达方式。

      英语表达和汉语虽然相通之处很多，也还是有很多不同的。比如汉语说“我高兴极了”，英语却说“I couldn't be happier”；汉语说“你好吗（你怎么样啊）？”，英语非要说“how are you?"，咱的书竖着排，从右到左，英语偏得横着排从左到右，好像诚心跟咱对着干。咱得理解人家，不能跟人家较真，那是人家的语言不是？

      有的网友问：”到底应该是went 还是went to?“我喜欢网友的认真精神，学语言还需要一种包容精神。河北话、湖南话、陕西话都是话；土豆、马铃薯、山药蛋都不算错。以前不合语法的，后来语法为它专门设立了特例；以前读错的，后来成了另一种读音，甚至取而代之；至于重要人物对通假字运用得如何成熟，那就更不用说了。对语言首先是理解，有把握的才用。真要用的话，看你想要什么效果。你要拉着小年轻告诉他“I would of told you if I knew"是错的，只能得到一个或更多的白眼。

      有兴趣的网友可以搜搜”best book I never read", "the best movie I never saw","the worst book I never read" 等等。如果那位网友觉得本帖有所得罪，绝非初衷，还望海涵。更多精彩文章及讨论，请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net
      • If you feel fine, then use it. I only want to give those who are trying to learn here some fresh perspectives. -nothanks(ciel); 2013-1-29 {547} (#8028251@0)
        No offense. I googled "the best movie I never saw". The search result gives me only this "the Best Movies You've Never Seen". All of links are using "you", not "I". Similarly, search "best book I never read", the result gives me this "the best books you've never read". "You" again, not "I". I still think there should be logic underneath what you want to express.

        Under what circumstances that you could extol something you've never even "seen"? But he saw, he could say "you" never saw. Am I confusing you? :)
        • 谢谢读帖和发表观点。No offence taken。探讨嘛，不是一言堂，欢迎不同观点。 -butubukuai(不吐不快); 2013-1-29 {319} (#8028371@0)
          我也主张只有很确定的才用，不很清楚的，用了可能完全不是想要的效果，所以我也不建议网友们用这种表达方法。这点咱们非常一致。"...you have never seen"和“...I never saw”的确是完全不同的意思，本人认为后者也是正确的用法。不知您google的时候是否加了引号，我的意思是让网友用引号搜索的。虽然您网名nothanks，俺还是得再谢谢您! :-)
      • +1 -redjunk(rolia); 2013-1-29 (#8028319@0)
      • 笔误，最后我是想说“哪位网友”，不是特指。改不了了，在此更正。 -butubukuai(不吐不快); 2013-1-29 (#8028376@0)
      • 不管是哪位的马甲，感谢你花时间码了这么多字！学术问题上的问题，时间和事实自然会证明的。至于有些人是否理解则从来不是本人所关心的。你的谈吐很有水准，在下钦佩！ -winterstorm(打酱油的); 2013-1-29 (#8028581@0)
        • Insults never work. Yes, "在学术问题上，时间，事实会证明一切". -nothanks(ciel); 2013-1-29 (#8028601@0)
          • But tolerance and acceptance do. -thornthorn($oOHoly MolyOo$); 2013-1-29 (#8028604@0)
          • I agree -winterstorm(打酱油的); 2013-1-29 (#8028624@0)
      • 认真码字态度好，赞一个！观点上对人不对事，批评一下。因为要支持一个人，把对错误的指正都归为太较真，怪别人太认真，非要别人包容，比较幽默。 -geekcode(吉克码工); 2013-1-29 {1096} (#8029185@0)
        不管怎么说，你这么地来认真讨论，我有时间肯定会尽量回复的。

        最明显的硬伤是go 和 go to。你如果说 go a place 不用加 to 是语法特例，请麻烦指出出处。不要学你的酱油哥东拉西扯，这事和河北话、湖南话、陕西话、土豆、马铃薯、山药蛋没关系。

        时态上，过去时即使不算错，也是明显不如完成时。

        另外，你和酱油哥有一个共同的误区。Google上查得到的少数例子，显然不能算是通用表达方式。现在以“the most beautiful place I never went”为例，有1650个搜索结果，你能不能说这是正确的呢？你仔细看看，绝大多数都是肉联的帖子。

        Search Result: the most beautiful place I never went

        而你支持的人确实不容易，发了这么多贴，竟然没有一条具体客观的理由，全是主观臆断。要不说别人少见多怪，要不就是不要拘泥于语法，要不就说别人心态有问题。其实，心态这东西是用来自省的，动不动说别人心态的往往该想想自己的心态了。真不容易啊！
        • 抱歉让您觉得对人不对事了。其实真没这个意思。我有我的看法，您有您的看法，我完全尊重您的看法。可能我表达不清，再罗嗦几句。 -butubukuai(不吐不快); 2013-1-30 {1882} (#8029542@0)
          本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛真没打算说服谁，所以才说支持酱油，意思是只是我的意见，不是说如果打起来我跟他一拨，可能是表达不清。论坛上大家意见不同，再正常不过，无意攻击谁；谁不同意我说的，我也不觉得是攻击我。我这人说话没谱，想到哪说哪，想怎么说怎么说，真客气或者想幽默被人当讽刺是有的。如有冒犯，再次致歉。提起较真，我很敬重能较真的人。您也好，酱油也好，在我看来都是较真的人，我一样的敬重。我有些事也较真，要不然我也废了。在接受语言这事上，我不太较真，倒不是我觉得不该较真，我是觉得用不着人人都较真，这样有较真的，有不较真的，世界更有意思一些。对您这种较真精神，我也赞一个！

          具体到对这句的理解，您和我的意见都清楚了，不用再说了。您要受得了，我就再东拉西扯几句无关的。您要是受不了，您把窗口一关，就甭往下看了。谢谢您回帖。

          我想罗嗦的是，第一，英语表达有很多与汉语表达不同的地方。比如有的人不说“我很开心”，说“I couldn't be happier”；不说“很糟”，说“Could be better”;不说“我错了”，说“I stand corrected"。所以我觉得学外语，得能放下母语的包袱，先试图理解人家的话，因为那是人家的语言。

          第二，语言不总是合逻辑的。“好容易”和“好不容易”有时是一模一样的意思。有首歌叫"The best thing I never did",意思却是“幸亏我没干那事，我真英明”。

          第三，语言很活，总在变。我的观点可以被批为没立场，我觉得语言有很多环境，在一个环境里错的用法，在另一个环境可能是精准而俏皮的。时间、人文环境、地域环境、上下文情境，都有关系。比如中文中“明日黄花”和“昨日黄花”，后者本来是错用，但正因为是错用，意思与“明日黄花”也不一样，用的人又很多，很多人也懂说者的意思，将来说不定是要被接受的。至于年轻人说话不合传统语法或用法的事情，就更是不胜枚举了。（唉，我老了。）

          所有的语言规则更重要的是解释语言，不是限制语言。当然我也不是主张大家胡说八道，不受任何限制。我的意思是听、读宽容不较真，说、写保守较真。被大家接受的说法会活下来，不被接受的就消亡了。

          您瞧，一下又罗嗦了这么多，您要是看到这儿了，再次谢谢您的批评和包容。这个话题我就到此为止了，希望说得清楚些了，要再有没说清楚的也不掰扯了，我先找个地儿害会儿臊去。更多精彩文章及讨论，请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net

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